How to Diversify Your Retirement Funds With Alternative Assets – The Road to Financial Freedom Podcast
Audio Only: How to Diversify Your Retirement Funds With Alternative Assets - The Road to Financial Freedom Podcast
Transcript
Patrick Grimes: Michael, glad to be here and start off the new year with a bang. First day back and here we are hard at it.
Michael Duncan: I couldn’t agree more. And it’s funny when you entered the Zoom call and you mentioned to me it’s a gloomy day outside, and then you show me your background, it’s like, I don’t know if it’s lakeside, ocean side, riverside, but I would take wherever it’s gloomy where you are over being gloomy where I am right now.
Patrick Grimes: Well, yeah, it happens to be Southern California lakeside. We live in Orange County and we’re right in the middle of one of the biggest torrential, we call it atmospheric. Yeah. River or something wild going on out there, but we’re used to scattered blue skies with scattered clouds here. So say a little prayer for us.
Michael Duncan: Oh, I will. Don’t you worry. All you in Southern California really suffering of the weather out of the year. Yeah. Meanwhile, I’m in Pennsylvania and 40, it’s around 40 today and it feels really warm which is the highest it’s been in a couple weeks, so I will take it. But with that being said, I would love to just start out by I guess asking you what exactly is you do, obviously I kind of gave a brief introduction about your background a little bit, investonmainstreet.com. But if you had to kind of sum it up for our listeners, what do you do?
Patrick Grimes: Well, we’re filling a need and it really comes down to the fact that most successful busy professionals out there, they’re investing in the only things that they know, which are qualified retirement plans, maybe getting a financial planner and maybe trading in stocks. The majority of them don’t have any idea that you can take some of those qualified funds and invest them in alternative assets with self-directed variants of those plans. And we’re providing those opportunities. It happens to be that I’ve started investing in all the assets back in 2006 and ’07, had a rough go at it through the downturns and then diversified into other areas that are more recession resilient, cash flowing, long-term legacy, wealth building, tax advantaged. And we provide those opportunities pre vetted. We do a lot of research, due diligence. We invest ourselves pretty heavily and we bring those to investors like your customers.
Michael Duncan: Yeah. Yeah. As soon as you said self-directed retirement funds, that’s right up CamaPlan’s alley. We’re a self-directed IRA administrator, so that is a common ground that I love that we share. So let` me ask you this. You said that you’re filling a need. Why would you tell a client of yours, a customer that they should be doing this as opposed to the more typical versions of retirement funds?
Patrick Grimes: It’s a great question. And just side note on the last, I actually wrote an article in Forbes on how to use your self-directed plan to start diversifying and alternative assets. So we definitely have some synergies there.
Michael Duncan: Absolutely. I’m going to have to look for that article.
Patrick Grimes: Well, if you look at the past 30 years, the S&P returned, I think it was seven in change percent. You look at that post inflation and you’re down at four, the fees come out and it’s all taxable either in the front or the back end. Most of investors are all trading in that stock market because that’s all that they’ve been educated on how to do. They unfortunately, and if you read investonmainstreet.com at Forbes Accelerated Retirement, what they’re missing is assets that grow… Sorry, man, I am really struggling today. Can we-
Michael Duncan: No, you’re fine.
Patrick Grimes: Can we re-try that question again?
Michael Duncan: Absolutely.
Patrick Grimes: Yeah. It’s a combination of the lack of sleep with the baby and just coming back after the new year. So I thought I had enough coffee to do this this morning.
Michael Duncan: No, you are totally fine.
Patrick Grimes: Can you tee me up on that question again?
Michael Duncan: Yeah, give me just one second. Okay. So you mentioned that you were filling a need, and I guess the question that I’d like to ask is what would you tell your clients about why it’s better to do this self-directed version of investing with your retirement funds versus a more typical retirement fund?
Patrick Grimes: Well, I think a lot of investors, they know in the back of their mind that their 401(k) or IRA sponsored through their employer isn’t going to get them where they want to go. It’s not going to have them retire when they want and through retirement, they’re going to watch that dwindle down and every vacation will be a year less or so that they’ll have it and potentially not leave anything to their children.
I think that most people agree about that, they don’t like the fact that all they’re basically stuck in and educated on is a 401(k) and IRA traded in the public stock market. Maybe they’ve graduated to a financial planner who also puts them into the stock market. Meanwhile, if they carve out a piece of their retirement savings qualified plan or peel off some of the rollercoaster that they have in their day trading account and they self-direct it into alternative assets outside of those. If you look at my passive investor guide on my website, the middle class high income and ultra wealthy have 8, 25 and 50% of their assets in alternative investments. So if you want to start investing the people that know how to invest, you need to find these opportunities. Not easy to find. And that’s what we help solve.
Michael Duncan: Yeah, I think that’s a great point, and I think something you said that really strikes a chord with me is just the idea of being educated on this kind of stuff. I’ll be honest, before I started working at CamaPlan, I did not know what a self-directed IRA was. I didn’t understand that there were other things you could do with your retirement funds.
And to say I was educated on retirement funds as a whole is probably a misnomer. I can’t say that I ever was sat down and taught about how to do retirement. I had a 401(k). I knew that I invested in an IRA because that’s what my mother did for a job for the most part, and that’s what she told me to do. But it’s been interesting getting to learn about this kind of stuff because it really does show that the system that we were brought up being told is the way to do it. It seems like it worked for a while, but the current state of the world especially has changed a lot about the way that we have to approach that kind of stuff. So I love the need you’re filling and the passion that you seem to have for helping people find those alternative investments.
Patrick Grimes: I actually have an article in Forbes on how to use your qualified plans to self-direct and invest. So we have a lot of synergies there. I also have articles in Forbes on inflation hedging, which unfortunately to your point today in this season is catastrophically hitting a lot of the retirement accounts in America. Also asset protection and how asset protected those are not, and the accelerated retirement that can be had through compounding interest through tax shielding and inflation hedging, which you can’t do in a lot of these plans. So there is an aggregated number of reasons why the high anchor murderers and the ultra wealthy invest in these alternative assets. But they also have the knowledge and the network and the resources to find them, vet them in due diligence.
And that’s if you’re a high paid CEO, lawyer, doctor, which most of our investors are, you’re busy, you don’t have time to trade your family hobbies and friends with your investment portfolio. You’re hard at work and you’re great at making money. You just need to have those outlets to invest it in a way which will have you retire sooner and grow your wealth through retirement. So you leave the legacy behind.
Michael Duncan: Yeah, I love that. Very well said. So I guess that brings me to why real estate investing. What are the benefits that come with real estate investing in particular?
Patrick Grimes: Well, so real estate investing that’s directed into real estate, that’s not a REIT. In fact, I have another article informs on why REITs are different because those are publicly traded companies and those are driven by sentiment. And again, inflation will take a hold.
Direct ownership over real estate, specifically buying real estate in a way where you can take the tax advantages, you own a hard asset, which is a real property that will appreciate with inflation, that grows as you pull income from it. Those are the kinds of investments that we put people in. Now a lot of investors will say, “Hey look, I can do that myself. I’m a really smart attorney or doctor and I’ve learned a lot and I’ve had control over a lot and I can do this on my own.” Well, the unfortunate thing is when you go buy a property yourself, you don’t have a decade of experience building relationships to get the best deals and to know what a good deal is, and you’re signing on the loan in your own name because you don’t have a bunch of assets behind that LLC, which means people can sue you.
You’re hoping your insurance plan will cover it. That’s a hope. I’ve lost everything in real estate once and you’re signing on loans, which means they can come after you if the property goes under, which happened to me in 2009 and ’10. So I tend to say that there’s a very big difference between the do it yourself, flipper or holder like I used to be, and what the TV loves to glamorize and those that are investing in real estate and treating it like a business. And that’s doing it in the growth markets where it’s landlord friendly and tax advantaged, investing with partners that have decades of experience finding the best deals, that have an experienced track record with renovating and improving those properties to pull out your investment and then can keep their team of acquisitions guys and asset managers, finding the next deals and improving those properties while you are enjoying your golden years collecting tax advantage, cash flow, growing with inflation and enjoying your life.
Michael Duncan: I would love to enjoy my golden years. I think I’m a little [inaudible 00:14:23], unfortunately, but hopefully soon. But I think that’s a really great point. So what real estate investment strategy is then best for wealth building?
Patrick Grimes: Well, so there isn’t any one asset class, which I think is the best. And because if you read my passive investor guide, it’s going to show that diversification is key. And the statistics that I showed you before about the amount of alternative assets, the allocation of alternative assets and the ultra wealthy and high income earners, 25 and 50%, they don’t have it all in one type of asset. And so it invests on mere, we’re working on providing what are called non-correlated investments. Those are investments that are not linked to the stock market. Those are investments that our investment thesis are inflation hedged that are tax advantage, meaning you’re likely not paying tax on the cash flow and then appreciate and that you can exchange forward and compound your wealth. And so I believe essential needs is the theory there and that’s housing, food, and energy. Those are the things that aren’t going to go away.
And we’re not a China where the government houses feeds and energizes everybody. And so that allows for us to get into these assets where the IRS is like, “Yes, please invest. We need you to invest. So here’s all these tax advantages.” Assets that cash flow right away so that you’re collecting and return immediately. And that’s both of our multi-family apartment workforce housing as well as our diversified energy funds where we’re doing direct oil and gas drilling. We cash flow, we improve the value of the assets and then we divest and sell so we can train them forward.
Michael Duncan: So you mentioned multi-family and I’m curious what the difference is between single family versus multi-family? What are the risks for each of them? And I guess what is the difference in why do you choose one more so than the other, I guess?
Patrick Grimes: Yeah. Well, most people go the single family route because it’s something they can do themselves. And I mentioned this before, they have $40,000 or $100,000. They’re like, “Oh, I want to go spend it but let me keep control over it.” Typically that means they’re finding a “deal” somewhere near by them, which is not always the best market. I live in southern California, I’ve never bought property here. It doesn’t make sense to do it. It’s a wild ride. It’s not landlord friendly. You’re certainly not going to get any tax benefits. We invest in the growth markets, which means you need to have somebody elsewhere far away where it’s better to do business. It’s better to set up a business. And so the disadvantaged single family people is, they’re always trying to invest nearby themselves. They don’t know how to find great deals, they don’t have decades of experience.
They don’t have a team of analysts that can take all this deal flow and analyze it. They don’t have the ability to self-manage it. In fact, they have these property managers like I did, or they’re worse trying to manage it themselves. All that means is I was constantly calling and chasing the property manager to come look after. I’m only making a few hundred dollars a month that didn’t even pay for the time for them to drive to and from my property. So they didn’t. And that’s your investment portfolio, multi-family, large apartment buildings, the longest running, appreciating, stabilized assets in single family in my belief is three bedroom, two bath, but there’s a lot of risk because maybe it’s vacant, you lose a bunch of money. All the other reasons, you’re buying it in your own name. It’s not asset protected. You can’t manage it effectively.
It’s just now big enough to bring on a partner for, but if you go past residential, which is 1, 2, 3, 4 units into commercial, five units above. But then once you get above 40 units, you in some markets you can have an onsite property manager, most markets that’s at 80 units. So I went from a portfolio of three bedrooms, two bath to my first deal, 86 units because I knew at that point I could have an onsite maintenance, I could have an onsite leasing, people would call me looking after my investments. I knew it was large enough to bring on partners that were local help asset management, both the construction, I can get economy of scale where I could renovate units and have a construction crew go and renovate units.
And instead of it costing me $20,000 or $30,000 to renovate a single family home at $2,000 to $3,000 a unit I can renovate for the same price, 10 multi-family units. Right? And so all of those benefits, in addition to them being an asset protected entities, and in addition to the fact that we have protection from lawsuits and the banks don’t require you to sign on those loans and personally guarantee them so that they’re not going to come after you and everything you own like they did me in 2009 and ’10. It means that you’re protected from them and they’re protected from you and they’re well managed and healthy investments in better markets.
Michael Duncan: So you’ve mentioned a couple times now about 2009 and 2010, and that’s something that interests me a lot, especially when I’m talking to people that are extremely successful in this space. And that’s because a common thread that I’m starting to see is past failures to put it very plainly. I’m a believer that you learn the most when you fail, not when you succeed. And it’s clear to me that you learned a lot from that time period in 2009 and 2010 where from your words, you lost everything. Could you tell me a little bit more about what happened then and maybe what you learned from it?
Patrick Grimes: Yeah, so like many of you, like many your listeners, I high paid high tech professional. I did machine design automation and robotics. I have a undergraduate in mechanical engineering, and I got some advice to invest in real estate. So I did. But at that point, I wanted to double and triple my money every two to three years. I wasn’t looking for long-term legacy wealth building at a lower risk or high adjusted risk of return where I would be sure not to lose it all. I was just, “Hey, let’s get into the best deals I can find,” which are best deal is the highest returning deals I could find that was pre-development, new construction, and which was a great track record with the partners. I was working with it. The market was never going to go down because this was 2007 and then ’08, ’09, ’10 happened. I was personally, I signed the properties like many of your listeners, I bought the land in my own name, and I signed on the loan in my own name.
And unfortunately, what the single family gurus are not telling you is that means that the bank can then come after you because they’re recourse loans, not like in our multi-family deals when you invest in your limited liability to your invest in capital. And they did. I couldn’t get them to take the property in lieu of the loan, and then they raked me over the coals pretty bad. It took me a number of years to recover, but I learned that I was speculating on assets in hopes that I would be able to create cash flow, in hopes that I’d be able to create value.
And if the music stopped and I didn’t have a seat, I would lose it all. I learned a lot about recession resilient markets, about how to buy for cash flow, about how to make sure that my investments can ride out recessions because they’re well capitalized in a way where if something happens, I can write it out and it’s built into the investment. We have that capital account on the side. So all those attributes are present now and our investments and to make some very low risk investments. They’re not necessarily the most sexy and highest returning investments. But yeah, I’m a believer that the tortoise will outpace the hare.
Michael Duncan: And I think that history probably agrees with you most of the time. And the change from a much more active position investing to passive investing, which you’re much more involved with now. What was that like and what are the pros and cons for each of them, I guess?
Patrick Grimes: So active versus passive investing?
Michael Duncan: Yes.
Patrick Grimes: I get a lot of people calling me as, like I said again, the doctors and the lawyers always saying, “Hey, look, I’ve got $50,000, $100,000. I’m looking at a duplex here nearby.” And of course the same issues come up. “Well, is that a great market?” “No, it’s a bad market. It’s not landlord friendly. It’s hard to evict.” “Where did this come from?” “Oh, I got it from this one guy.” “How many deals did you look at?” “Oh, a few.” Well, we look at 300 deals and we have a team of analysts that analyze those before we find a good one. And the ones that we actually go with aren’t on market, they’re off market pocket listings. So you’re not going to be able to ever get to that point if you’re busy being an attorney or if you’re busy being a high tech professional, those are two different jobs.
And one, you love your job,. Well do your high paying job because on the other side of being active, it’s higher risk for you. It’s higher risk for me on the general partnership side. But you have the first dollar in, you have the highest likelihood of return because I get paid last. And we pass forward oftentimes higher returns to you than we get because we want to partner and build a long-term relationship. So it’s kind of the better of the world’s being on the passive side, I left behind my career because I’ve always been passionate and excited about investments. And that’s something I chose to build a financial institution for my future. But I chose out of something I loved, which was machine design automation and robotics, which when I was doing machines for aerospace satellites, EV vehicles, medical devices, I even jumped in heavy during covid and helped do COVID automated assembly test kits.
I’m a huge nerd and I love it, but I loved real estate more. But this is on a completely different profession. You may not lie. And so that’s what I try and tell people is follow your passions. Don’t try and become a real estate professional if you really are something else and you’re good at it. Because that you’re going to be like me. I was impossible to date. I was impossible to marry because I was moonlighting my investment portfolio while doing an extremely highly demanding high-tech career. And I even went and got a master’s in engineering and an MBA while working full-time. So when I told my wife, when I met my soon-to-be wife, the end of my single family career was when I said, “Look, I’m done doing these.” She was there for my last closing and that was it. And I said, “On the other side, I’m going to do something different. I’m going to trade up into something where I can partner,” because I was impossible. I couldn’t moonlight my investing career and also marry my wife.
Michael Duncan: So it sounds like the biggest pro and con of active versus passive is just being able to be married. Apparently I need to get into more passive investing. That’s what I’m learning. But no, no, that’s a funny story. I like that. So I would love to, speaking of passive investing, I would love to hear a little bit more about the other stuff that you guys are doing at Invest on Main Street. You did mention to me before the podcast that you had just started looking into some stuff with energy and other things outside of real estate. Could you tell me a little bit more about that?
Patrick Grimes: Sure. So as we started trading up to the larger multi-family deals, I started working with other investors and bringing their capital in through what are called syndications. People can invest passively in a secured way or much lower risks and being active. And I started building up this multi-family portfolio to the point where I started noticing a lot of my investors were getting heavier and heavier indexed than just real estate. And maybe they were like 401(k), IRA, maybe a financial planner, maybe trading in the stocks and then they’re in real estate. But that’s one correlated asset. And my family, we collect our royalties. I invest in alternative assets other than real estate. And then I started having these conversations. I was like, “Well, have you considered diversifying out?” They’re like “I am. I’m in a mobile home park, I’m in a single family.”
No, that’s all real estate. Yeah. What about a non-correlated asset outside of that? And there’s lots of them and I happen to know about them, but they’re not that well known. And most of the investors don’t have the knowledge, the network or the resources to even know about them, find them, do the due diligence, invest, vet them. And so we started creating these alternative investment options, which are ones that we’ve already done all our investing in heavily. Even my securities attorneys invested in our energy portfolio in a way where they’re structured at a lower risk profile that would be typical for energy and for high tech professionals, doctors, lawyers, those guys have the most to win by diversifying into energy. Again, essential need because you’re an investment, at least 75% of it comes directly off your taxable income, your just a gross income. You don’t have to be a real estate professional because it’s not real estate to do that.
Energy and oil and gas, those intangible drilling costs for most of my investors, it’s like getting a 30% return right after… Obviously you could talk to your accountant, but for most of my investors, just the tax instead of a loan on the front end is dramatic game changer for them. And if you invest where the government says. Now, it’s got to be a good investment. And an oil and gas does tend to be risky, but we’re doing diversified portfolios that help to reduce that risk profile with companies that have been doing for 20 years, 30 years experience. And so we’ve got half oil, half gas product makes port diversified energy funds where we’re doing dozens of wells. One doesn’t hit just like if a multi-family apartment building has a fire or a flood, doesn’t matter. It washes out in the economics. We do it at scale.
We have geographic diversification and concentration in numerous places. So we help to bring that risk down. So you can take incredible tax advantages as well as monthly passive income, which is tax advantaged as well as an equity multiple when we sell the portfolio on the back end. And the best benefit of this, it’s not the search for the lowest risk deal, it’s the search for the best diversified portfolio which de-risks your investment. And with interest rates going up, valuations waning in real estate, their cash flows are going down. It’s not a good time to sell energy right now, macroeconomic political it’s amazing. With Russia misbehaving, constraining the western supply of natural gas, which is half the portfolio. OPEC just decided to dial down their production by 2 million barrels a day. The future’s bright, cash flow’s going up, valuations are grow going up, and national oil and gas drilling is incredible.
So it’s an awesome time to invest into it. And so we’ve providing those opportunities and we have more next year, I think next year we have a diversified income fund in affordable housing, not workforce housing, our multi-family, this is affordable housing. And in the year when unfortunately, a lot of the deals are not cash flowing anymore in real estate and the ones that were stopped and the new ones might not because interest rates have drawn down that available distributable cash flow. And that’s a lot of deals.
Our deals are still cash flowing strong because we were protected from rising interest rates, but a lot of them weren’t. We’re restructuring a specific fund that already has about 400 single family homes that diversified across numerous markets where we’ve got government guaranteed rents and government guaranteed rental increases because they’re affordable housing. And that kicks off enough cash flow for us to provide a 12.5% Preferred equity position. And so this is going to be, I believe, an incredible service for people needing the cash flow any year when cash flow is very scarce opportunity to get a lower risk to immediately start getting over 1,000 a month on 100,000 investment tax advantage. Again, inflation hedged again. So we’re also launching that first quarter this year. I think I might have said next year, this year-
Michael Duncan: You’re still getting used to the new year.
Patrick Grimes: Yeah.
Michael Duncan: But no, that’s incredible. I’m sold, I don’t think I necessarily have the money to go into that at the moment, but that does bring me to my next question that I love asking is if you’re talking to a 26 year old, he doesn’t have a large nest fund of retirement money or whatnot, what would your suggestion be? What is a good =way to get started?
Patrick Grimes: Mm-hmm. It’s a good question because the reason I can talk about these investments with you right now openly, openly and publicly is because we are filing with the SEC as a 5060 Reg D, which means we can only allow a credited investors, you got to have $1 million in net worth, not including your personal residents, $200 in income or $300 income with your spouse. So that is a high mark, but that’s the only way we can show and tell people that these investments exist. Otherwise we wouldn’t be able to talk about them on your podcast or openly market them. So I do know others that structure these deals differently for non-accredited investors, but they are friends and family preexisting relationships only. So if your listener base is interested in those kinds and they’re not accredited investors, that’s fine reach out either way. I’ll forward you one to other investors that I know that are structuring investments that help individuals like yourself take that leap forward and can help them get to that point where they’re accredited, which unlocks a bunch of other types of investments as well. And that’s generally what I say.
Michael Duncan: Well, I think that’s great advice and I might have to take you up on that. So before I let you plug all your stuff and tell all the listeners where they can find you, I have one last question that I love to ask all of my guests, and that’s really just asking, what does financial freedom mean to you?
Patrick Grimes: Financial freedom. So financial freedom for us is location freedom and it’s time freedom. Really, when COVID hit, my wife and I, we moved to Oahu. We spent a couple years living, we started in Lani Kai and then moved to Waikiki. And because we were not worried about what the ramifications might happen and I could afford to fly back and forth, we moved to a safer place than Los Angeles where there was much lower COVID rates and we could live a wonderful life, the two of us on a resort island and we had a great time. That is allowed for not because I invested in the stocks, because they took a plummet. That’s allowed for, because I invested in recession resilient market, insulated cash flowing investments. And that’s an example right there. Right now I have a $500 million portfolio in multi-family.
I’m only doing this energy stuff because it’s fun and I get to help investors that desperately need the diversification, especially today with real estate winning. Yeah, desperately need it. So the time, I have the time to be able to add an entire division of our company, alternative assets, bring on a P mine that’s invested in a half dozen, dozen deals, and he’s structured tens of billions of deals and basically for both of us, it’s for hobby for him and for me, it’s a passion to help level up the IQ of America and give them the opportunity to invest like the ultra wealthy and diversify like the ultra wealthy.
But all of that isn’t coming out of this desperate need to put food on my table. It’s coming out of, Hey, I want to do something that’s awesome, that’s give back, that creates value and wealth and that’s a lot of work, but I can really wrap my mind around to it. And I love the impact that it makes on the investors.
That’s not a W2 job that’s something available because I made strategic investments early on in long-term legacy wealth growth assets that even in these ebbs and flows of the market, I’m fine. I don’t have to worry about what the TV says because I’m in so many different diversified income streams.
Michael Duncan: Well, that’s incredible and that’s an awesome answer. Thank you very much. Now please tell our listeners where they can find you, how to contact you if they’d like to. Of course, a lot of, most of this stuff, if not all of it, will be in the description of this episode, but please tell them.
Patrick Grimes: Yeah, so invest on main and then street.com, investonmainstreet.com. That’s our website. We have some investments at the top, both multifamily, diversified energy. And then in this first quarter, you’re going to see the Affordable Housing Income Fund, which is a 12.5% Percent fund, and we’re going to be launching maybe by the time this goes live, I’m not sure when it’s going live. We have a lot of resources there. I talk on stages, on wealth building, on economics. We have those video recordings. There’s a lot of podcasts I write for Forbes. There’s articles on all kinds of stuff that I refer to some of them here. I also have an Amazon number one bestselling book I co-authored that I know Michael’s got a copy of. I’d love to offer it to your listeners.
Michael Duncan: Yes, and the code for that is going to just be CamaPlan, C-A-M-A-P-L-A-N.
Patrick Grimes: Okay. Write that promo code down and go to investonmain street.com/book. That’s the secret link. Invest on Main and then street.com/book promo code CamaPlan and Persistence, Pivots and Game Changers: Turning Challenges into Opportunities. This is an incredible book. I had such a great time writing it. We’ve got the league guitarists of Def Leppard on here. We got NFL, NBA Players Real Estate, all kinds of, and me with a wig on. I’m just kidding. I still had hair back and my wife shaved off the hair during COVID, but it did make an Amazon number one bestseller. I love the stories in this book and had a wonderful time writing it.
I’ll sign a copy and my team will ship it to you for free. I believe in what this can do and the stories that are in here, and I’m happy to contribute in that way. And if you want to talk investments, invest on main street.com/contact, invest on main street.com/contact. My calendars right there. I have the time. And you can book a time directly on my calendar and I’d be happy to have a chat with you, see where you’re headed, and get you pointed in the right direction.
Michael Duncan: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Patrick for coming on. I had a great time talking to you and I can speak to the book. I’m really enjoying working my way, way through it. I’m a slow reader, but I’m enjoying it nonetheless. Thank you so much for coming on. I hope we get to talk again in the future. And on behalf of me, on of Patrick, and on behalf of CamaPlan, thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.
Patrick Grimes: Thank you so much, Michael.
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