The Real Estate Investing Club Podcast – Assets & Markets For a Recession-Resilient Portfolio

Gabe Petersen: We are back with another episode of the Real Estate Investing Club. Today we have Patrick Grimes with us from Invest on Main Street and PassiveInvestingMastery.com. Patrick has been investing since 2007 with a real estate portfolio valued at 600 million plus a lot of experience. He went through the 2008 crash, and he’s ready for this next one. We’re here to talk about recession-resistant acquisitions and taking advantage of the recession on the upswing that we’re going into right now. So, Patrick, I’m super excited to have you on. Thank you very much for hopping on the show.

Patrick Grimes: Glad to be here, Gabe. You’ve got a podcast right after my heart, talking real estate.

Gabe Petersen: There we go. I told you before we got on here, we like stories. We like to hear how people got to where they are today. So why don’t you take us back to your story, how’d you get started in real estate?

Patrick Grimes: Yeah, so I actually was an engineer starting out. I went to mechanical engineering school undergraduate, and I had an affinity for that early on, not like Dilbert Extreme but close. So I started out as a machine design automation and robotics and engineering, and the owner of the company I work for, he encouraged me. He said, “Look, you’re going to do great in high tech, but don’t invest your money there and put it in real estate.”

His only regret from founding this very successful high-tech company was not investing more in real estate sooner. So I jumped in there, hoping to double, triple my money and made some bad bets. I invested in pre-development and then 2009 and 10 happened, and then I was raked over the coals pretty hard.

I came bouncing back a number of years later as my high tech career grew. I got a master’s in engineering and business. Then I scaled into single-family, buying for cashflow, recession-resilient markets, things that allowed me to write out recessions, like low leverage reserves and building a really built to last and recessionary-resilient. I don’t like to say resistant because nothing’s purely resistant, but resilient. Then I founded Invest on Main Street and traded up to private equity, syndications and larger apartment buildings. We’ve done diversified energy funds and a number of other assets that help our investors diversify out of the stock market.

Gabe Petersen: Nice, man. I love it. I never like to hear investors having to go through being kicked in the teeth. It happens to all of us, I feel like. All of us, we have those deals that just didn’t turn out the way that we wanted. A lot of it comes with experience, comes with going through a number of deals, understanding what the market cycles and everything like that. So I don’t like to hear that you had to go through that, but it sounds like you got some great wisdom from that experience because it allowed you to springboard to where you are today. So let’s just take a moment to kind of hone in on that moment when you were investing before the 2008 crash. What did you really take away from that? Once the crash happened and you had some hindsight, you were able to look back, what were some big lessons that you learned from that?

Patrick Grimes: Well, a quick teaser. At the end of this podcast, I’ll be happy to give away a free copy of my book we ship out. That’ll tell the whole story. So if you wait to the end here, we’ll give you the link in the promo code, but love to inspire individuals along the path. I was like many of your listeners, a high tech or some kind of professional, a doctor or a lawyer, who was making income. I was climbing the ladder, and I wanted to do the American dream. I wanted to become a landlord, become an owner. Right? And buy real estate. But I was inexperienced, I didn’t know what I was doing. I hadn’t been through downturn before, but I did due diligence. I looked kind of in the near term history for what seemed to be the highest returning investments and that was sort of in these high growth markets where you could get in early and do a pre-development, residential pre-development. So I bought in, hoping to double and triple my money.

Gabe Petersen: By pre-development, do you mean just buying land, plotting it and selling it off to developers?

Patrick Grimes: Well, so being me, that was going to build on it. Right?

Gabe Petersen: Okay, okay.

Patrick Grimes: Before even being able to build on it and then getting into that point. Then so the hope is not only do I get land that I can then get ready for development, but then I can actually build on it. Right? So there was kind of like a double leap of when will this cashflow, and let’s hope that the market doesn’t fall apart until it does start to support itself. I put everything into it, right? Because market was never going to go down. This was 2007.

So the lessons learned was just there’s quite a few. There’s kind of unpacking the onion was to invest, not speculate, investing for cashflow and buying right and buying something that values more, working harder to buy something that values more the day you buy it and not on a hope. Buying something that supports itself, that cash flows, that can write out recessions. Most importantly, buying recession resilient markets, ones with not only assets of cashflow, but people that can potentially rented immediately. Those are supported by employers which have some built in resilience and insulation, like healthcare, vertical economies that have diversification and things like logistics and finance and healthcare, things that tend to hold up in recessions. So there’s a number of other things, but I learned a lot, and to be the tortoise, not the hare mostly.

Gabe Petersen: I like that.

Patrick Grimes: I came out kind of embarrassed, and it took me a while to get back into it. But when I did, like you said, it was the right mistakes to make at the right time, which allowed me to then be more humble and scale systematically.

Gabe Petersen: Yeah, yeah. There’s no need to feel embarrassed. That happens to all of us, getting into deals that just don’t work out as we had planned. So you’re with the best there. I’m glad you bounced back. It’s really hard after getting kicked in the teeth to bounce back from that and decide, “I’m going to do this anyways. I know I made a failure, but everybody has failures.” So glad to see you’re here, and you’re doing well. You’re doing great. You guys, you have your fund. I want to talk a little bit more about that because you’ve mentioned a few times recession-resilient markets. That’s something. We’re in recession now, and so it’s something that’s very important to understand. Usually people talk about recession resilient assets. So you’re talking about like mobile home parks, self-storage, stuff like that. I don’t as often hear people talk about that when they’re speaking of markets. So tell us what in your mind is a recession-resilient market and how can people go out there and identify them for themselves?

Patrick Grimes: Sure. Well, they tend to be locations where you see a combination of factors. In general, every market in the United States undergoes cyclic cycles, and they tend to go on this expansion curve. Then they get to this hyper supply. Then when people are so excited that they’re expanding and growing, and that’s the time to invest, but then they get oversupplied and prices are too high. Then they go to recession and then recovery. So you want to find those markets and they tend to be those markets that are in that expansion curve are places that are bringing people. There’s population growth and-

Gabe Petersen: Dallas, Jacksonville, Nashville, places like that.

Patrick Grimes: Yep. But you got to look at a couple more things because you also got to look, “Is it legislative friendly?” Because jobs come and those attract people. Right? If it’s legislative friendly then it will make it a low cost place. Typically that lends to being a low cost, a place to do business as well as a low cost of place to live. So with those two, you’re going to see sustained growth of the economy. Right? If you’re in real estate, it’s really people. You’re in the people business. So you want to look at that. Then you want to look at what are the jobs that are in there. Like I was saying earlier, some of the biggest losers are the high tech hubs like San Francisco, like San Jose because they’re heavily indexed in one vertical. Turns out that can be very transitory. While people are growing and jobs are increasing, those tend to ride waves.

What I learned was that I could pretty much predicted that I was going to lose everything if I had looked at the right economic data. Right? Because you can look in the past, and you can see what particular markets in the southeastern states actually held true during recessions. Like Houston, where I heavily started out was … and I’m in both single family and large multifamily, but it basically leveled off in 2006 and 07, before it started going up again. Whereas places like Vegas and Phoenix, 12 years, 12, 14 years before you even broke even again.

Gabe Petersen: Oh wow. I didn’t know that.

Patrick Grimes: So you got to find those diversified employment makeup ones, like I said, that are recession-resilient, got to find people moving there, legislative-friendly, landlord-friendly. Then you got to find the right asset, right, within it to invest. Those are ones that I don’t believe that that … if you want to be real recession resilient, I don’t believe that’s the prime AA new construction because people are living there by choice.

When people are sizing down, there’s nobody really sizing down to that asset class. They’re already topped out, and there’s not much when you buy those to improve and sort of force your rents up. You’re kind of hoping that the market stays true and that the renters keep wanting to rent because they’re renting by choice because there’s other options. I tend to like the workforce housing kind of blue collar B and C class, what we call them, apartment buildings that have been around for 20, 30 years that maybe we can buy from somebody who’s neglected them, and we can fix them up.

Now that’s recession resilient because if we buy something that we can fix up, well, we’re creating value right off the bat, as opposed to hoping. We’re doing that by going to work instead of just holding. That helps, plus people in the A class departments will scale down in a recession, so there’s a higher demand or something that we can create value on by working hard. So I kind of tend to lean in those ways.

Gabe Petersen: Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Sounds like a good plan. So you guys, first you look for your markets based on the legislation. Is it friendly to landlords? Is it friendly to businesses? Is it attracting people to those locations? Then whether the market itself is growing, if there’s a net positive migration, you look for that. Once you locate a metro that you want to invest in, how do you identify those value add properties that are within that market? Do you reach out to brokers? Do you look at specific neighborhoods? How do you really define which assets you want to be investing in?

Patrick Grimes: Right. So what we’ve kind of talked about is the strategy. I almost want to say through and pre-COVID, where we do this value add strategy. That’s what built a portfolio to last and write out a recession, I believe. The other components we haven’t talked about are did you get fixed debt or did you get a rate cap, and did you put low leverage, and did you structure the foundation right? But if we’re talking about today now, what are we doing? Are acquisitions moving forward within these markets? It’s a very different equation right now.

Why? Because the real estate market is on that reset. So things that we’ve … the value, the properties we’ve purchased and the value we’ve created, we’re riding out a bit of a title decrease, right, in that market. Now we have low leverage, which means very little debts. We’re cash flowing. We created value by improving the units, so we’re okay. We’ve got fixed debt or rate cap debt that allows us to ride out a recession like this, but we’re not doing those deals, and I’ll tell you why. Because the value add strategy, which you mentioned value add yourself, that means we’re going to have to buy something that needs improvement.

Well, right now with inflation the way it is, we’re seeing the cost of those improvements go up. We’re seeing the scarcity of the labor to do those improvements happen and the timeline extend for those improvements while the tide is lowering. So the traditional buy, it’s something that you can level up over the course of a couple years as you renovate maybe a hundred units. I’m not favoring that right now. Not that it’s a bad strategy, but it’s not the best for today. That’s why when we talk about recessionary acquisitions, which is our current push, we’re talking about what are we looking for now.

Right now, we’re seeing wildly discounted and great buys by motivated individuals that have great performing properties but weren’t all the things that we were discussing, didn’t structure their deals right, had floating rate debt, didn’t have a lot of experience, didn’t create the value, didn’t have a bunch of reserves on the sidelines, debts coming due. A lot of different things that cause people, the mismanaged during COVID have high delinquencies now, to become distressed owners, not distressed assets. These are great buildings.

But what we’re seeing is that’s throttling up. So with the recessionary acquisitions, we’re not looking for, “Hey, what’s a property that we can buy, and then we have to increase rents to get our returns?” Not what’s a property we can buy and we have to hope that the market will increase to get our returns. We’re doing off-market deals direct to owner. We have this large engine just searching out, talking to thousands of people, pulling 200 viable opportunities.

We’re finding those individuals that need relief. They need to offload the asset and they need to get out immediately. We can come in with funds we’ve raised through our fund and we can just pick that up quickly and be that source of relief. We know before our funds even go hard in the deal that we can get the return on the buy. This is the time. This is the season to get that upside of the downturn to balance out the title lowering of the rest of your real estate portfolio. That’s how we’re doing it right now within those markets.

Gabe Petersen: Yep. Yeah, that sounds like a solid strategy. The market is never a hundred percent predictable. You never know exactly what’s going to happen. So you’re talking about how the market’s kind of at a situation right now where there’s a lot of … I mean, distressed sellers are becoming more and more frequent. They are looking for people like yourself who can come in and kind of purchase them at a bit of a discount in order to alleviate the issues that they’re experiencing with their own operations of the property. How long do you think this period will last where those assets, those distressed sellers are at a position where they need to be selling for a discount of their property?

Patrick Grimes: There’s over a trillion dollars in commercial real estate debt coming due over the next year.

Gabe Petersen: Oh wow, that’s a lot.

Patrick Grimes: Well, I mean some of the deals we do are a 100 million, 200 million. But to be clear, that is a lot. That’s a lot. Now it is concentrated in some other assets and multifamily-

Gabe Petersen: Commercial, yeah.

Patrick Grimes: Is to be the most stable. Commercial is office, retail.

Gabe Petersen: Yeah, office, yeah.

Patrick Grimes: But in COVID, what took a big hit was retail. Right? Nobody went to the store. Now people are all working from home, and we’re going to see office take a colossal hit. Why? Because they had long-term debt, and that’s beginning to come due. There’s going to be a reckoning in office. But what we’re seeing is, and especially now, like I said, we’re coming about 200 leads in as little as a month. We’re only picking up one or two of thousands that we’re sifting through. We’re using intelligence software and a lot of people and specific metrics to locate these distressed owners of these kind of medium-sized assets, but that’ll at least be going for a year or two.

I think that what’s interesting about it is the interest rates are going to go up a little bit more. They’re maybe close to the top. They’re going to slowly step down. The reason why it’ll last a year from now is because what the bank’s coming due, whether or not they like it or not, they have to refresh their debt. They have to find a new lender or refinance. So that’s a forced restructuring of their debt. They’re probably going to have to exit those properties sometimes at a loss if they didn’t build it with the foundation that we talked about.

But on the other side of that, as interest rates slowly decrease, as we’ve seen that they slowly will as they track inflation, there’s going to be in year two and three from now still people that were living on the hairy edge. As they say, when the tide recedes, you can see who’s swimming naked, right? That are still going to need this.

That’s why we have an overwhelming amount of these now. I believe that’s only going to go up, and it’s going to be two or three years before we stop seeing these. That’s why the best buy right now is to make your return on the buy that hoping, right, and then do it within the fund. We’re actually doing a 1031 exchange within the fund instead of just cashing everybody out and then go to the next buy and then do a trade forward and go to the next one and do trade and we’ll go to the next buy. That’s our strategy is to continually trade these forward in a way where you get some really exciting returns because the volume is there today, unlike it was in prior years.

Gabe Petersen: Yeah, that makes sense. So you’re seeing really the biggest opportunity is within the next year, so June of 2024, between now and then, you’re seeing a huge opportunity for these distressed sellers to come to market. Then it’ll also start to trickle down over the two to three years after that.

Patrick Grimes: If I look at my crystal ball, I was at a mastermind in Dallas and I talked on a panel with some economists in Chicago, and everybody’s looking in their crystal ball. But the most important thing is there’s deals like that right now. It’s important to jump on it right now. Warren Buffett says to be greedy when others are fearful. I don’t necessarily like the quote, I’m an analyst by nature, I’m a mechanical design MBA that I just love the numbers. The numbers make a lot of sense right now, and that’s what I care about.

Gabe Petersen: Yep.

Patrick Grimes: So yeah.

Gabe Petersen: Absolutely. You mentioned a few times that right now you guys are sifting through a lot of leads, which means you’ve generated those leads. What’s your guys’ favorite way to get off market leads because that is the place where the best leads are found is off market.

Patrick Grimes: Yeah. So we do have a proprietary system with a partner of mine that it costs about 200K a year just in software with intelligent analysts doing sifting and sorting through. Then we have an outreach team which reaches out directly. So there’s-

Gabe Petersen: So cold calling.

Patrick Grimes: It’s the hard way, right?

Gabe Petersen: Yeah.

Patrick Grimes: No.Not just that, but there’s a lot of different strategies we’re using and different channels, but it’s not easy. It’s a lot of work and it’s expensive, but in this kind of market you need to invest and work harder to find the right investments.

Gabe Petersen: Yep, absolutely. All right, man. Well, I loved everything you shared so far. I took a peek at the clock. It looks like we are running it down. So I have to move us on to the quick question round. Are you ready?

Patrick Grimes: I’m ready. Go for it.

Gabe Petersen: Let’s do it. Starts with books or any form of education, give me two recommendations. One for general life wisdom, one for real estate.

Patrick Grimes: A CEO Only Does These Three Things by Trey Taylor, A CEO Only Does These Three Things by Trey Taylor. He’s an incredible person. This book just came out. He’s already been to MIT. He’s flying all over the country. If you’re very serious about developing and empowering your company, I recommend you read that at least five times or listen to it on Audible. I actually run around the lake every morning to educational content, usually at one and a half speed. I slowed it down to 1.25 and then I slowed it down to one and that’s probably the best compliment I can give. Then I went through it another time on one.

Gabe Petersen: Slowing it down to one is the best compliment. That’s funny.

Patrick Grimes: Yeah, yeah. That’s what I told Trey too. I actually talked to him and I told him. I was like, “That’s the best comment I can give you right now.”

Gabe Petersen: I love it. And I just pulled it up on Amazon, A CEO only does three things. Sounds like a good one. I’ll have to pick that up. How about for general life wisdom or was that general life wisdom?

Patrick Grimes: That Was general life wisdom. Yeah.

Gabe Petersen: Yeah, yeah. How about real estate?

Patrick Grimes: So real estate, specifically in real estate, man, there’s no other one that shows up other than the Purple Book, right?

Gabe Petersen: Rich Dad, Poor Dad.

Patrick Grimes: Yeah. I mean that is the ultimate. Not to be cliche, but I tend to have been through a lot of real estate books, and now I tend to read more of the ones that are more general life or business consulting kind of. Yeah.

Gabe Petersen: Yeah, Rich Dad, Poor Dad. That is a solid book that I’m sure everybody, every investor has at least perused. It’s a good one when you’re just getting started, gives you an overview of why you should be investing in real estate. So love that. Moving us onto the next question, this is for your younger self. So let’s go back to the Patrick who was pre-2008 crash. He was looking into those pre-development sites. Go back to him, look him in the eye, give him one piece of advice moving forward.

Patrick Grimes: Well, I think that there’s … I’m doing a TED talk on this, so I’m going to just summarize it, but I think there’s a fallacy in the American dream here. That my advice would be to not go the traditional path. I was climbing that corporate ladder, doing everything to be successful. I was successful, but that had me investing in IRAs and 401Ks and then trying to be an owner of real estate and doing it all myself. That was how it was supposed to be.

It turns out that’s really risky, and you could lose everything. Either your assets are in volatile indexes that your employer or your financial planner has or you’re signing personally on loans, and you’re trying to be an expert in real estate, which you’re not, which I wasn’t. I’m risking losing all, which I did. The reality is if I would’ve just taken an unconventional path like I am now, found partners to trade up with and not sacrificed so many years, moonlighting away from my family, friends and hobbies and partnered sooner, then I would’ve found my way to these private equity investments where I could get most of the benefit but have a better team diversify and better markets and scale quicker.

And it wasn’t until we did that and I left single-family home behind, and we got into multifamily, and energy, and now we’re doing recession that my wife and I really started to see our business scale. We were able to get free of it all.

Gabe Petersen: Nice. Yeah, partners, finding the right partners is so crucial. Finding good mentors and good partners can move your career along so much faster than you think. So I’d love to hear that worked out for you guys. Next question is about your business. The first three positions we hire for form the foundation of our business. So what were the first three positions you hired for, and would you do it differently if you did it again today?

Patrick Grimes: Yeah, so let’s see. I first hired a VA. That was my very first hire, like full-time. These are full-time hires or these are contractors?

Gabe Petersen: You can interpret it however you want.

Patrick Grimes: So I first hired a full-time VA, and that was a game changer, out of the Philippines. She’s been with me since the very beginning. She never left. She’s just the greatest person. She’s had two kids now. Unfortunately, she’s on a maternity leave again, but fortunately for her, she’s on a maternity leave again.

Gabe Petersen: Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Grimes: But just love her to death, and she’s incredible. But that was the first. The second, now I tend to be the engineer that keeps my head really close to the grinding wheel, getting the work done, not really getting myself out on podcasts or in books and stuff. So I hired a director of marketing. That was a game changer for me because I was actually out there doing really cool things. We had really great deals. We had thousands of units at the time. Now we’re half a billion, five, almost 5,000 units and also in energy funds and all kinds of diversified stuff. But at the time, relatively nobody knew about me, but I was doing all this cool stuff. What was really cool and empowering was to get the right person in the right seat to kind of get my story out there, to get our company out there. People were just drawn to us after that.

So that director marketing was incredible. Then the third one was some help with talking with investors. I participate in every single investor coming in to — at least in the initial call, but having somebody to help out better service, more dedicated to consistently following up with getting the investor reports out, explaining the new investments to new investors coming online. I actually provide my … I’m way too available. I love talking to people, but that obviously was a bottleneck. I appreciated being involved in my investor’s life, but having somebody there that they can catch any time of any day was such a better service to them, and it allowed us to scale.

Gabe Petersen: Nice. So VA, and then a marketing admin, and investor relations. It sounds like you did focus in on your strengths, which is exactly what everybody needs to be doing. Then you hired for the positions that you were not … had as your strong suit. So love to hear that. Next question is about the US. It’s a big place, a lot of opportunity out there. Give me the single city, the single metro you’re most excited about investing in today.

Patrick Grimes: My tried and true long-term metro is still Houston.

Gabe Petersen: Houston.

Patrick Grimes: Yeah. I could debate with some economists on this, but I am still to this day very favorable about the employment diversification there, the recession resilience, the growth, the landlord friendly, the legislation and the steady state of it, not the hyper swings of it. I think I’m more excited about the old tried and true, right? Than I am jumping on the hare and trying to race to the finish line.

Gabe Petersen: Than act fast. Yeah, I mean the Texas Triangle, Houston, San Antonio. What’s the last one?

Patrick Grimes: Dallas.

Gabe Petersen: What’s the one up there? Austin. oh yeah, and Dallas. Those are all solid markets. Houston is a great one. I’m with you there. I like markets that they just slowly go up over time, not the ones that go crazy up, crazy down. I don’t need any of that in my life right now.

Patrick Grimes: Been there, done that. Didn’t like it.

Gabe Petersen: All right. Next question is about mentors. Mentors form … Or none of us are islands. We all stand on the shoulders of giants. I need to know my own bylines here. So who is one mentor who’s contributed significantly to your career today?

Patrick Grimes: Well, so when I started out, I said, “Look, I’m not doing single-family anymore, and I am going to trade up to larger, more sophisticated commercial real estate, multifamily apartments and others. I spent two and a half years kind of interviewing a mentor. I met a dozen different partners, more than that, but a dozen I actually thought we might do business together with. The one that I found that was most in alignment with where I am as a risk aversion long-term focus was Robert Rithental. He’s just an incredible guy. Like me, he’s not out in the limelight. He’s getting a bunch of stuff done, and it takes a while to meet those kinds of individuals. He was the guy that I bled sweat and tears with to get into the game after a long journey and that I closed my first few deals with. So definitely very happy with my collaboration with him.

Gabe Petersen: All right, well shout out to Robert. Thank you for helping Patrick get to where he is today. That leads us to the very last question. This is for the listeners. You’ve given us a lot to think about. I’m sure people want to reach out, get in contact with you. Where can they find you? Then I know you mentioned a book. Where can they find that? What do they need to do to get their hands on it?

Patrick Grimes: Yeah. So Invest on Main and then street.com, all spelled out. That’s our company InvestOnMainStreet.com. We have Passive Investing Mastery, which is an educational platform we’re building out to kind of give back and try and bring as much educational content around alternative investing outside of the stock market and how to build a portfolio that’s long-term resilient.

Join us, opt-in on both those sites. I’d be happy … we do have ability to set up a call. I talk to anybody who’s interested. There’s ability to set up a meeting on my calendar. I can share, understand what your goals are, and hope you get you pointed in the right direction. We do have a book out. This is my first time getting my whole story out there. It was Persistence, Pivots and Game Changers: Turning Challenges Into Opportunities. Bryant Tracy did do the foreword, and there’s Phil Collins of the Deaf Leopard, NFL, NBA players, entrepreneurs, a musician, just we had such an amazing time.

I’m there with hair. It wasn’t that long ago, actually a couple years, and my hair’s gone. But it made an Amazon Number One Bestseller. It was such an incredible opportunity, so many great stories. It was very inspirational for me to just be a part of this. I tell my whole story. I’m happy to give a signed hard copy to anybody that, specifically your listeners. If you give me a promo code, they go to Invest On Main and then Street.com/book. It’s a secret link. Invest on Mane and then street.com/book. Then would you like to put it in the name of your podcast, the Real Estate Investor Club, and if they see that in the promo code, my team will send you a copy of that.

Gabe Petersen: All right.

Patrick Grimes: Hopefully, it leads to us having a conversation someday.

Gabe Petersen: All right. I love that. So that is InvestOnMainstreet.com/book. You can put in the promo code, The Real Estate Investing Club. You guys can get your hands on that. So, Patrick, that wraps it up. Thank you very much for hopping on the show.

Patrick Grimes: Absolutely. Thanks, Gabe.

Gabe Petersen: Absolutely. For everybody who’s here with us today, thank you guys for showing up. You are the reason we do this. So if you guys have any questions whatsoever, reach out to me, Gabe, at the RealEstateInvestingClub.com. If you guys want to support the show, all we ask is you give us a like, subscribe, share, all that jazz. Other than that, I hope you guys have a great week, keep rocking real estate. I look forward to seeing you on the next episode.